Interview with Mert Madsen (b. 1940)
Original Bassist for the Outsiders

June 2019

In preparation for my March 2023 talk at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I spoke with Mert Madsen, the original bassist for Cleveland rock band the Outsiders. We spoke about his early experiences with music, his joining Tom King and the Starfires, and his career with the Outsiders in the 1960s.

Brian F. Wright: Mr. Madsen, thank you for speaking with me. First, I’d like to know how you came to play the electric bass? How old were you? Was it your first instrument?

Mert Madsen: To take it from the top: My first instrument was a two-row accordion, which I started on in 1944, when I was just four years old. Then I later played a piano accordion. I emigrated to the U.S. [from Denmark] in 1957 and joined Tom King and the Starfires in the Fall of 1958. In the beginning, I played upright bass. But in 1959 I bought my first Fender Precision Bass, and I mostly played those types of basses until I left the country in 1970.

BW: Do you remember where you bought your first electric bass? Did you buy it brand new from a music shop or did you get it used somewhere?

MM: I bought it at a music shop in downtown Cleveland. I think it was on Euclid Ave, but I forget the name of the store.

BW: Any idea how much you paid for it?

MM: I think around $280/$300 tops.

BW: Do you recall why you decided to switch from upright to electric bass?

MM: It was less hard on my fingers, easier to play, and much easier to transport.

BW: Were the Starfires the first band you played with in the U.S.? Did you go to high school with Tom King and the others?

MM: They were the first band I joined in the US. But no, I did not go to school with them.

BW: I see. So how did you end up in the band?

MM: I worked in a furniture factory. I was on a double date with Tom’s girlfriend, who later became his wife. She told me about Tom and that he had started a band, and asked if I would like to meet him. I said I would like to—and the rest is history.

BW: In the early days, did the band mostly play instrumentals?

MM: No. It was a mix of both instrumentals and Tom singing Buddy Holly and Elvis songs.

BW: Do you remember what kind of instrumentals you were doing?

MM: Duane Eddy tunes, like the “Theme from Peter Gunn.” Then when we got a sax player and started doing things like [Bill Doggett’s] “Honky Tonk,” and originals like “Night Walk” and “Stronger Than Dirt.” We went from rockabilly to more straight-ahead rock and blues style.

BW: Do you remember, when you were starting out, why you wanted to be in a band? Did you have professional aspirations? Or was it just for fun? Did you keep working at the furniture factory while playing in the Starfires?

MM: I have played music all my life. Music has always been my biggest passion. It’s the best part of me. But the first few years I had to keep working at the furniture place. I like to eat you know.

BW: But eventually you made enough money as a musician that you didn’t need a day job anymore?

MM: Yes, but only barely. Gigging for $10-$15 dollars a night was no bread-winner life.

BW: Was that still before the band became “The Outsiders”?

MM: Yes, from the Fall of 1958 to the Fall of 1965 were the Starfires years. We played a lot in bars and such, but also a couple of nicer places where the money was a little better. But never over $25 a night. At the start of The Starfires we also played a lot of record hops for the DJs for free.

BW: Was it mostly all Cleveland gigs in those early years?

MM: Yes, around the Cleveland area. The DJs Carl Reese and Bill Randle helped us get on record hops, which built up our reputation.

BW: And as the Starfires you put out some singles? Of which the instrumental "Stronger Than Dirt" was the most well-known?

MM: Yes, “Ring of Love,” “Stronger Than Dirt,” and “Billy’s Blues” were the three best known locally.

BW: You also played on local Cleveland TV? Or was that after you became the Outsiders?

MM: We played a couple of times on Channel 5 Cleveland TV, both before and after we became The Outsiders.

BW: Were you a few years older than Tom King?

MM: Yes, in 1958 I was 18 and Tom was 16.

BW: Were most of the other guys in the band younger than you?

MM: Yes.

BW: At what point did you really feel like the Starfires were a success? Was there a particular milestone that stood out to you?

MM: Well, in the start it was quite a struggle. But we were determined to go someplace. As Tom’s wife said, “It’s not you guys that are obsessed with music, it’s the music that obsessed with you!”

BW: So it didn’t feel truly successful until you became The Outsiders? 

MM: Nah, we had our sound with the horns. [The Outsiders] had their sound mostly with the guitars, in the beginning.

BW: So how did the band become The Outsiders?

MM: Our manager, Roger Karshner, said that it was out of style to have a band named after a car. Tom had a heated argument with his Uncle Patrick, which ended when his uncle said, “You have always been an outsider to the family, Tom.”—So it was mostly to spite his uncle when he suggested to Roger Karshner, “How about The Outsiders?” And so it was!

BW: By the time you changed names, were you still doing instrumentals? Was the band's sound still mostly the same?

MM: Not much, because now we had Sonny [Geraci] as the lead singer, and he wanted to sing hit songs by The Temptations and many other groups.

BW: How did you guys end up getting signed to Capitol? Do you feel like that was a major turning point for the band?

MM: Well Roger Karshner worked for Capitol. So after we cut “Time Won’t Let Me” he presented them the song, and they said sign them up!

BW: And with Capitol behind you pushing the single, it became a national hit.

MM: Yes! And the William Morris Agency helped quite a bit too. They had the bookings. So we were signed to two heavyweights.

BW: And you left Cleveland to join big national tours? Did things change immediately for the band after that? Did it feel like an overnight success?

MM: Well “overnight” is a big word, but after a few months or so we became a major name in Billboard and Cashbox magazines. “Time Won’t Let Me” went to #5 on the Billboard charts. We did a lot of tours and TV shows. We toured with Gene Pitney in 36 states. We were on Hullabaloo and Where the Action Is, and lots of local TV shows around the country.

BW: Your bass line to “Time Won't Let Me” is really impressive. I always hear it as the engine driving the entire song. Is that how it felt when you wrote/recorded it?

MM: Well, I felt that the horns and the bass line were what gave the song the right punch. I made up my own bass part for the song and added what I felt the song needed. Even Tom King said, “It was due to your driving bass line that the song became a big hit.” He told me that when I visited the U.S. in 1990.

BW: It has a unique groove to it that I think is hard to copy. There is repetition but with subtle differences throughout. It has a certain sort of looseness that I really enjoy. When you played it live did you play it differently every time? Was it hard to recreate?

MM: No, once I got it down on the track, I liked it so much that I never ever changed a note while performing it—even on the double-time ending!

BW: Had you been playing it live around Cleveland before you recorded it? Or was it done first in the studio?

MM: No, we hadn’t played it before it was released it as a single. The first time we played it was in the studio. We were pretty busy getting our routines down for shows and such. 

BW: I think maybe that’s what gives it that wonderfully loose feel. It has a sense of spontaneity to it.

MM: The only thing I regret was that we couldn’t afford to take the horns with us on the road.

BW: So when you went on tour there was no horn section?

MM: No, no horn section. Only guitars bass and drums. But on the TV shows we mostly lip-synced to the original studio recording. 

BW: Did you play differently without the horns? Or did you just recreate what you had done on the records with their parts missing?

MM: The guitars filled in the horn parts. Otherwise it was the same as in the studio.

BW: By the time you went on the road (outside of just the Cleveland area), were you making decent money? Did having a hit record translate into financial success?

MM: Well, our managers made a bundle. But we didn’t. Oh, we got by, but I could have made about the same amount in the furniture factory. But then again, I would not have missed it for the world. I would do it all over again if I had the chance.

BW: Because it was the dream? Just the experience of “making it”?

MM: We somehow knew that we eventually would make it. By god we sure struggled enough to make it. We had seven years of back-breaking hard work before we made it.

BW: I read that you left the band not long after “Time Won't Let Me” had become a big hit. Why did you end up leaving the Outsiders?

MM: I was in the group for a little over a year. In that period of time I recorded twenty-five songs in the studio—two and half LPs and five singles! So those are the facts. I left because of too much pressure from my new wife and her parents, and from the managers.

BW: So you left around 1967?

MM: No, I left in October of 1966. The Outsiders started in September 1965. The only guys in the Outsiders that came out of the Starfires, were Tom, Sonny, and I. The others were added a bit later.

BW: Thank you Mr. Madsen for taking the time to answer my questions.

MM: Any time. I love to think back on those days where we almost became mega-stars. Not too many kids Get that far…